[50nl] JJ

I don't really play NL very often, but here is a situation where i'm a little confused. I don't have stats from Villain, only know that he didn't do freaky stuff in the first few rounds.

GAME #974609979: Texas Hold'em NL $0.25/$0.50 2008-05-10 12:03:03
Table Calcium
Seat 1: Jenny56 ($57.00 in chips)
Seat 3: this is me ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 5: MadClaw ($66.10 in chips) DEALER
Seat 6: boodzob ($4.33 in chips)
Seat 8: VIGNEL ($63.45 in chips)
Seat 10: identer ($12.45 in chips)
boodzob: Post SB $0.25
VIGNEL: Post BB $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to this is me [Jd Js]
identer: Call $0.50
Jenny56: Fold
this is me: Raise (NF) $2.50
MadClaw: Raise (NF) $9.00
boodzob: Fold
VIGNEL: Fold
identer: Fold
this is me: ???

Is there any value in a shove here? What if i call, and the flop is ragged?

Originally Posted by Hanslopez

I don't really play NL very often, but here is a situation where i'm a little confused. I don't have stats from Villain, only know that he didn't do freaky stuff in the first few rounds.

GAME #974609979: Texas Hold'em NL $0.25/$0.50 2008-05-10 12:03:03
Table Calcium
Seat 1: Jenny56 ($57.00 in chips)
Seat 3: this is me ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 5: MadClaw ($66.10 in chips) DEALER
Seat 6: boodzob ($4.33 in chips)
Seat 8: VIGNEL ($63.45 in chips)
Seat 10: identer ($12.45 in chips)
boodzob: Post SB $0.25
VIGNEL: Post BB $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to this is me [Jd Js]
identer: Call $0.50
Jenny56: Fold
this is me: Raise (NF) $2.50
MadClaw: Raise (NF) $9.00
boodzob: Fold
VIGNEL: Fold
identer: Fold
this is me: ???

Is there any value in a shove here? What if i call, and the flop is ragged?

I'd say it would depend on how this table plays and how they usually

play on this limit where you play.

I really can't see calling as an option at all however. You can fold and

get away cheap if that feels right for you. Otherwise I would raise

again to around $20.

Hoping to hear some responses from NL cash game players here (we have a few who are on later hours) before responding to OP as I'm not much of one. Most all my holdem cash game play is short handed fixed limit.

I do have though for BiteMark though. If he raises to $20 and gets pushed all in isn't this pretty much an instacall?
Whats the reason behind raising to $20? It is to invite action (I can see this) to gain information (what info do you need if you feel committed at $20) or to look for a fold (which in this case, why not push instead of raising).

Just curious the though process in a hand like this, and how the raise to $20 was determined.

Raising sucks, unless he's a maniac. Your best play is probably to call, and play poker. If an Ace, King or Queen falls, you're not in good shape.

If you see a flop that gives you an overpair you should probably be willing to get it all in.
Your best line is to c/r all in on overpair flops.
If you flop a set you're better off c/cing to try to let him spike on AK or AQ if he missed.

Honestly without a lot of reads, folding here is acceptable. It's kinda weak, but sometimes you just don't have the info to play a hand profitably.

First off I'm not really sure how NL50 plays but here is my thinking on it...

Ok well calling sucks here being out of position, he will then have an option of a free turn if he has AK. Since he is Button his range of hands here is going to be quite large, although, I kinda get the feeling he might be be stronger since he is isolating the limper, but I still see AK here enough times to make a re-raise or a push. If he has QQ, KK, AA..whatever...

I think the best play here is to four bet shove. Which makes your hand look like AK and then he will probably be willing to call off with 88,99,1010,AK

If you are thinking about folding check to see if you still have your balls. lol

Originally Posted by Aidan

First off I'm not really sure how NL50 plays but here is my thinking on it...

Ok well calling sucks here being out of position, he will then have an option of a free turn if he has AK. Since he is Button his range of hands here is going to be quite large, although, I kinda get the feeling he might be be stronger since he is isolating the limper, but I still see AK here enough times to make a re-raise or a push. If he has QQ, KK, AA..whatever...

I think the best play here is to four bet shove. Which makes your hand look like AK and then he will probably be willing to call off with 88,99,1010,AK

If you are thinking about folding check to see if you still have your balls. lol

I really find it hard to believe this guy would call my shove with 88-TT.

Originally Posted by Hanslopez

I really find it hard to believe this guy would call my shove with 88-TT.

Depends where your playing IMO. @ Bodog you'll find enough players that might also call with AQ, 77 plus all the other hands mentioned.

personally...id fold here :P my poker office shows a net loss (-15.88) from shoving JJ preflop, and that is at 10NL

edit for correctness... SHOVE... you have 77% equity vs any given hand.

Clear cut shove or fold spot. Calling is horrible unless you're both deep and villain has a rep of always stacking off with overpairs.

I shove/reraise if villain is super maniac, like 50/25 or worse. And I fold every other time, especially with no read. Calling 20% of your stack with JJ oop is almost as negative EV as shoving JJ to 3-bets.

Originally Posted by DonovanMD

Clear cut shove or fold spot. Calling is horrible unless you're both deep and villain has a rep of always stacking off with overpairs.

I shove/reraise if villain is super maniac, like 50/25 or worse. And I fold every other time, especially with no read. Calling 20% of your stack with JJ oop is almost as negative EV as shoving JJ to 3-bets.

I think I agree, unless these guys do tend to call a shove with 88+, AQs+. But that's hard to say, when you don't play 50 NL often.

Originally Posted by Jim

Hoping to hear some responses from NL cash game players here (we have a few who are on later hours) before responding to OP as I'm not much of one. Most all my holdem cash game play is short handed fixed limit.

I do have though for BiteMark though. If he raises to $20 and gets pushed all in isn't this pretty much an instacall?
Whats the reason behind raising to $20? It is to invite action (I can see this) to gain information (what info do you need if you feel committed at $20) or to look for a fold (which in this case, why not push instead of raising).

Just curious the though process in a hand like this, and how the raise to $20 was determined.

My reasoning is that I want to make it as hard and confusing as possible
for my opponent. By saving $28 and making the bet to $20 noone knows
what I really want or hold. Opponent has $57 and has to decide if he should
call $11 and see if he hits an ace on the flop or not. He probably
felt good raising to $9 and thinking he could get away if I push all-in.

Now he is stunned a second and is thinking what the hell just happened.
If he push all-in without blinking now I even can turn around and fold,
saving the $28. Also, by leaving some chips I want him to ponder why I
don't move all-in. Do I have AQs and really want to see a flop? Perhaps
I have AA and want him to bite the hook a few times so he can't get away?

I want everyone to know that I am capable of doing this move both with
a powerhand and with any other hand at any time so I do count on my
plays holding future value as well.

Hans, what did you end up doing with this hand?

Originally Posted by Aidan

Hans, what did you end up doing with this hand?

I called...


GAME #974609979: Texas Hold'em NL $0.25/$0.50 2008-05-10 12:03:03
Table Calcium
Seat 1: Jenny56 ($57.00 in chips)
Seat 3: this is me ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 5: MadClaw ($66.10 in chips) DEALER
Seat 6: boodzob ($4.33 in chips)
Seat 8: VIGNEL ($63.45 in chips)
Seat 10: identer ($12.45 in chips)
boodzob: Post SB $0.25
VIGNEL: Post BB $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to this is me [Jd Js]
identer: Call $0.50
Jenny56: Fold
this is me: Raise (NF) $2.50
MadClaw: Raise (NF) $9.00
boodzob: Fold
VIGNEL: Fold
identer: Fold
this is me: Call $6.50
*** FLOP *** [9s 6d 2d]
this is me: Check
MadClaw: Check
*** TURN *** [Ah]
this is me: Check
MadClaw: Bet $16.50
this is me: Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $34.80 Rake $0.95
MadClaw: wins $34.80

ah damn, bad turn card for you!

or maybe a good one if he had 9's or something

Originally Posted by Jim

or maybe a good one if he had 9's or something

Are you always so positive Jim? ;-)

against an unkown, you fold this one pre.
you don't have set odds, and you can't play profitably against hands you beat.

Originally Posted by Hanslopez

Are you always so positive Jim? ;-)

Missed this post earlier.
Yeah for the most part, Yes.

The emotional part of gambling died for me a long time ago - I big win or a big loss, don't feel much different at the end of the day - and when I lose a pot to a bad beat I realize that is what makes the games good, so generally I'm always thinking positive.

The mind is dangerous though once it starts thinking negative and I find myself falling back into that from time to time on certain things.