[10/20 6 max] 33

I don't see many limit situations, so here it goes....
The game here is pretty loose, people tend to limp alot.
I decide to open raise, and a loose guy ( the only thing i know is that he open calls sometimes) calls me in the SB. Then he donkbets me...

Seat 1: jack135799 ($532.00 in chips)
Seat 3: TaraGold ($398.00 in chips)
Seat 5: nimzon ($4,802.25 in chips)
Seat 6: hkkk1 ($567.79 in chips)
Seat 8: thisisme ($432.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Treasherhunt1982 ($1,833.64 in chips) DEALER
jack135799: Post SB $5.00
TaraGold: Post BB $10.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thisisme [3d 3h]
nimzon: Fold
hkkk1: Fold
thisisme: Raise $20.00
Treasherhunt1982: Fold
jack135799: Call $15.00
TaraGold: Call $10.00
*** FLOP *** [Jc 6h 5h]
jack135799: Bet $10.00
TaraGold: Fold
thisisme?

He can be betting out with so many draws here. Flushdraws, 87, 34 perhaps.
How would you play this?

Call it weak, but I'd fold. I'm not much of a limit player thou.


Yea, you have like 6:1, but there are sooo many bad cards in the deck, you really have no idea where you're at and may have to call a bet on every street to get to showdown. Raising opens you to getting 3bet by good draws, better pairs. You're a monster dog if you're beat and basically flipping with anything else. I let this go.

I don't think folding is weak, I think it's the right play. You need a super strong read that he only donks draw to consider calling and even if you're very sure it's a draw there's a lot of cards you may have to fold to on the turn or river.

To break it down using Stoxev, lets make the very optimistic assumtion that he only donks top pair or better (feasible for very strong hands wanting to bet/3bet), flush draws and open enders,he has:
flush draw : 27%
straight draw: 13%
top pair or better: 60%

We only have 24% equity against his range giving us odds of 3:1. Assuming we must call all 3 streets, we have effective odds of 11:5 or 2.2:1, therefore we don't have the odds to call down. If we also bring in pairs worse than top pair into his donking range a call becomes even worse.

You have to put complete air into his donking range. If you were head up preflop this is an auto call or raise. The fact he bet into 2 of you is cause for concern. Remember he is thinking "did that flop hit a preflop raiser". I think it's pretty much a coin flip. If you always fold in this sort of situation good players will start running all over you.

I agree with that you can't just fold everytime, but 33 is like one of the worst hand you can have here. I'd rather have KQ, AK, AQ than 33. You are nearly dead if you're beat, but barely ahead if you're good, and have no idea what cards improved your opponent. AK plays so much better than 33 here.

Easy fold here imo
If he has any piece of it now your way behind even if he has total air like 9T then yeah your 70% ahead, but I don't think its all that easy to put him on this. I give him credit and get away cheap.
If it was 77 on a board of K T 8 heads up I might feel different because if his hands not made there are still plenty of cards under 7 that can come on the draw. with 33 its tough to play this hand I get out cheap early.

Igf you fold here, why did you see the flop? Other than flopping a set or something like 542 this is a good flop for you.

Originally Posted by Barton

Igf you fold here, why did you see the flop? Other than flopping a set or something like 542 this is a good flop for you.

If I don't know the players tendencies I fold here.. I'm most likely either beaten or slightly behind to two two pair draws w/ legit straight or flush draw - yes at best I could be 69% favored if he's on air but hard to give to much credit to air with him leads 3 handed. At this point I like getting away cheap here and I'll look him up later if someone else doesn''t first.

I'm not sure sure its a good flop with him calling from the blind. The flop looks like its going to not have hit me often as well if we build a pot here it might be tough to get him to laydown if he has a piece of it.

I don't think it's a big deal eV wise either way. I'm just making the general point that when you start getting up to 10/20 and higher some of these people know how to play. There is a good chance a blind will bet right out here because he thinks the flop missed both of you. If the other guy called it would clearly be an autofold. You can also play it as him being on a missed draw. Pop him on the flop, bet again on the turn. You might even get him to fold a 6 or a 5

Originally Posted by Barton

You have to put complete air into his donking range. If you were head up preflop this is an auto call or raise. The fact he bet into 2 of you is cause for concern. Remember he is thinking "did that flop hit a preflop raiser". I think it's pretty much a coin flip. If you always fold in this sort of situation good players will start running all over you.

I scanned this thread earlier very tired. I woke up on 6 hours sleep, had about 30 minutes to kill before showering and leaving for my daughters Birthday Party and was chatting with a friend on MSN who lurks this forum, wish he would post, but besides the point who linked me saying - easy fold?

Anyways reading it here again I agree with what Barton said. Short handed fixed limit Holdem has tons of questionable situations. The cards I don't like going deep with though are pocket 2's and 3's where or bottom paired flop of 2 or 3 - where just about every card on the draws ads another over that can beat you 6's on a 984 flop well there are a lot of cards 2' 3' 4' 5 that can come that don't change anything.. with 2's or 3's there aren't many. You got to get away from some hands cheap even in position - this is what I picked this one - but i don't think the not being all that much difference EV wise is all that off - except yes the opponent obviously is thinking "did that flop hit a preflop raiser" - and I think its a hard flop to sell it did, and he can easily call down light here with a small piece of it.

If you fold this one, you can perhaps pick up the next one because of it - I'd be eager to splash light soon - rather than wait and find myself with a big hand a few hands later and get no action.

A lot of it is read in these situations. Some players will always have a jack here, some will never have a jack (they check raise). Some bet draws others don't. I agree with Jim, you aren't going to know where you are at this hand, barring miracles you pretty much have to decide now.

I can see folding
I can see raising (and folding if 3 bet)
I can see raising and betting any scary card
I can see calling and betting scary turn cards
They have to be believable scary turn cards like an ace or a heart

Im generally agreeing with Barton here. Most the time I am not folding here unless I am up against a very straight forward opponent.

You took the lead preflop and I think you need to maintain it here with making some kind of play at the pot. At the very least this will help to make future steal attempts more believable and will help limit your opponents from playing back at you in some form when you steal from the button.

As to my choice of play here when I decide to play, I am probably raising the donk bet 70% of the time and betting the turn. 30% Im calling with the intention of trying to take the pot on the turn.

You have to remember that it is likely he is scared of alot of the same turn cards you are. Imo in marginal spots like these you have to give your opponent the oppurtunity to fold.

Guys, a weak/passive player ( i've seen him open limp a couple of times, so i assume he is pretty passive) donkbets from the SB against 2 players. I think this means two things:

1. He bets with a hand ( toppair, middle pair, buttom pair)
2. He bets with a draw


Either way, i´m not totally happy with my pair of 3´s here. Because i assume he is kinda weak en passive i think he has a hand most of the time. If he does have middle or buttom pair, can i push him off the hand? I don't think i want to find out.

Pretty easy fold imo